The Reds

In 2014, the 1st year post-Dusty, the Reds pitching was very good but the offense sucked beyond belief… sounds familiar to 2025. Of the 12 position players who got more than 200 PA, only 3 were above average at the plate: Mesoraco who missed almost 1/3 of the season due to injury, Votto who missed almost 2/3 of the season due to injury, and Todd Frazier. None of the other 9 players had an OPS over .683, they all stunk.

No way Dusty gets that team back to the playoffs… and the Reds roster was effectively dismantled the next year so 2015 and beyond were not playoff teams no matter who managed them.

Ok, since we resorted to name calling, anyone who blames tHom’s narrative of Bartman costing the Cubs the 2003 series against Miami is either an idiot, lazy or has never watched baseball. Your revisionist history argument is a joke.

Let’s start with Dusty running Prior out for 130-plus pitches each of his final two starts of the regular season and 234 innings overall after throwing half of that the previous year.

The Cubs were leading Game 6, 3-0, and they were off the day before, so they have a fresh Borowski, who was in the zone. His ERA was 2.63 in the regular season and 1.17 in the playoffs. They only needed five outs.

Prior is clearly tiring, as he’s criminally over 120 pitches again, but rather than go to the bullpen, Dusty leaves Prior out there to give up a double, a walk and a single before the foul ball that Alou never would’ve caught anyway, since he was worst defensive left fielder in baseball.

Alex Gonzalez, who for whatever reason is never given the Buckner treatment, botches a double play ball, loading the bases, and rather than reading the room, Dusty leaves Prior in to serve up a three-run double then finally brings in Farnsworth, who ultimately serves up another bases-clearing double and an ensuing RBI single.

Dusty had numerous chances to stop the bleeding, but instead he watched his team give up eight runs while his dominant, fresh closer sat in the bullpen.

And there are countless other examples of his boneheaded-ness, but you picked that one so we’ll stick with that.

For the record, I was excited when the Cubs hired him after the Giants let him go despite making the WS in 2002. I talked to a scout friend and he told me “there’s a reason they didn’t bring him back”. I found that out a year later.

By the way, the next season, with pretty much the entire team back, the Cubs choked away a playoff berth the final week, and Steve Stone – a billion times smarter of a baseball man than Dusty – called them out on the air and ultimately was let go as a result.

They won 79 games in 2005 and 66 in 2006, finishing last partly thanks to making the amazingly-dumb move to take Dempster out of the rotation and make him the closer.

It’s hilarious that you finish with saying the Cubs stopped making the playoffs after Dusty was fired. In reality, Piniella took over in 2007 and won back-to-back division titles with the Cubs.

You might not want to comment on the Cubs since you clearly don’t know anything about their history.

didnt-read

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Thank you, Bonk. Dusty was not a great manager. The 2012 Reds were the best Reds roster since 1990. They had the same 5 starting pitchers the entire season, and all 5 were good. That NEVER happens. Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Rolen. And they still blew a 2-0 series lead at home vs the Giants.

I remember Dusty starting a LH hitter vs a LH pitcher, and when a reporter questioned him on it:

Dusty: “He hits this guy well.”
Reporter: “He’s 0 for 3 in his career vs this pitcher.”
A frustrated Dusty: “I go with the eye test and my gut.”

I respect your opinion, Dick, but sometimes analysis needs to go deeper than win/loss record. I recall last summer at this time you compared Travis Steele unfavorably to Jack Owens because Owens win/loss record was a tad better than Steele over their first two seasons at Miami, even though Owens left Steele a complete dumpster fire. None of us realized Miami would win 25 games at the time, BUT it was obvious last summer that Steele and his staff were building something at Miami, including culture, that Owens never could.

Under your line of thinking, if a MLB manager has that much impact on a team’s success, then the 2025 Reds should be better than 2024 now that they have a HOF manager. You sound like the Reds beat reporters who spent all of spring training convincing fans how huge the Francona effect would be. Analyze deeper.

You’ll never change Cubs fans’ minds about Dusty, but he’s in the top ten all time for managerial wins with a better career winning percentage than Tony LaRussa or Jim Leyland, the two most recent managers inducted into the Hall of Fame. He also made the playoffs nine of his last ten seasons in the dugout.

Maybe you can knock him for winning only one World Series, but that also describes Leyland, whom everybody (rightly in my view) treats as a modern-day Casey Stengel. The modern-day playoffs are basically a crap shoot; getting there every year gives you a lottery ticket, but vibes and luck have a lot to do with it after that. If you don’t believe me, ask Dave Roberts or Aaron Boone.

ETA: And pardon my own Great Wall of Text, but this was less frustrating than watching the Tigers gag away a winnable getaway day game in Chicago that contending teams shouldn’t drop.

You will never convince me there has ever been a better stadium graphic then those pixelated ghosts that said “walks will haunt!!!”

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Walks Will Haunt just edges out Wild Pitch. :smile:

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I would say that the winning percentage is largely due to all of the teams he managed being loaded, but to your point, five different franchises trusted him to manage their teams over the past few decades and he still had to win with those teams in the regular season. And he got the most out of a lot of guys.

He’s a patriot (Marine), he learned Spanish to become a better communicator, he’s by all counts a really nice guy who I’d love to buy a beer and chat with at my local saloon.

Maybe that’s why so many people pontificate when they talk about him (you didn’t do this, I was responding to someone else, but I’ve met a lot of people who won’t even entertain that he wasn’t the next generation Sparky Anderson). I don’t see discussions about Leyland and the like being as polarized.

I agree playoffs are somewhat of a crap shoot now, but I just pointed out one sequence of boneheaded postseason moves he made. Giants fans always remind me of him starting Solomon Torres in Game 163 in 1992, which defies all logic.

There’s also the pitcher burnout angle. Wood, Prior, Zambrano and Clement all had their careers shortened from the Cubs alone because of Dusty’s overuse. I would argue Harang as well.

So I can acknowledge the good, I just take exception to being called a dumbass if I disagree with Dusty being the Herb Brooks of baseball (it always comes back to hockey :grin:).

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Do not harangue about harang. I simply won’t stand for it.

(Sorry, it was too easy. Had to be done. It’s my job.)

@Bonk I’m pretty sure @DICK was calling the Reds and Cubs dumb asses, not you. But, I’m sure he will clarify that himself.

Aaron Harang never forgave Dusty for using him for 5 extra innings (18 inning game) on 2 days rest, then bringing him back for his next start on 3 days rest.

Aaron Harang was never the same pitcher again.

I also seem to recall Dusty’s first year in Cincinnati, he kept hitting Corey Patterson lead off. Patterson’s on-base that year was .238. Managerial malpractice.

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I read it as fans that don’t accept Dusty as their lord and savior.

I went to basketball practice a couple of times and to a couple of scrimmages in the Fall and I just did not see the progress we were all longing for. The practices were drills and half court work and did not allow some guys to show off their full court ability, plus Suter showed nothing to separate him from the rest of the guys.

Now Coach Steele came in stating it would be a 3 year climb, different than Owens who came in and had a great recruiting hall, and the roster he took over was every bit as weak as what Coach Steele inherited. There was nothing in the first two seasons that showed we were in a better place.

I basically said that we needed to be a lot better this year. When we won at App State I got really optimistic quickly but then we had our biggest nonleague home game vs Wright State and I looked at Wright State as having the weakest team they had had for years and thought that game might be our big opportunity to turn things around before our regular fans and the students and it was a close game and the Raiders veteran players put us away with like a 12-1 run starting around 7 minutes to go. Discouraging. None the less I had not given up ( and I travelled to Michigan and then to Ft. Myers for those games. The Ft. Myers games were an eye opener and Peter Suder was just terrific in that tournament , showing all the toughness and determination and leadership we needed. Our fan support up down there was outstanding and at that point I felt we turned the corner. From then on we just kept getting better and other guys kept emerging. Great season. None of that was obvious before Ft.Myers.

I was calling the Reds and the Cubs management Dumb Asses. I made all my points why in my original post. I did point out all the blame different fan groups have giving to coaches like Dusty or Bill Mallory or Chuck Martin and how well the Miami management handled things with Mallory and Martin and pointed out a few needed changes and stuck with them and how the Reds and Cubs listened to the grumbling and fired Dusty . Now as I read my last post it is easy to see how if you look at that post by itself you thought I was calling you a name. I did not mean too, but it was probably poorly written on my part. Fans are going to be fans and we all have our opinions. It is the job of ownership and management to be above that and make the right call. IMO both the Reds and Cubs groups failed while both times the Miami leadership made great calls. Sorry for writing it poorly and making you feel I was calling you a Dumb Ass.

The Knicks firing of their head coach was very similar, at this point I think they should have pulled him in and discussed the criticism and suggested what needed to be changed, Management gave in to angry fans who did not get what they wanted badly. To me in watching the playoffs, I thought he did a great job with what he had, but personally I would rank the Celtics, Cavs, Pacers, OKC, and Denver as all being a little better. Celtics and Cavs had major injuries, Cavs for the second year in a row which killed their chances.

I think CES is good to go. :rofl:

Good call… Reds decided to try getting him thru waivers but he was claimed, so they ended up trading him for a nominal amount of cash.

Reds have nobody at catcher in the minors who projects even as a MLB backup until you get to Alfredo Duno at low-A, because of multiple disastrous fairly high draft picks over the past half dozen years. FWIW, Duno could be really good, but is still 3-4 years away.

If or when the Reds have their next catcher DL, they should then just pick up a free agent. Happens all the time in the ML. I think Tucker Barnhart’s name was recently in the daily transactions list. There are always guys like that floating around. Similar to NFL teams picking up a Place kicker who was out there.

Yeah, but with catchers, they can’t go everyday, so you’re starting a AAA guy two days a week, and if you end up with both catchers injured, you end up with a huge hole in the back of the line-up. So the question became, is it better to have a short bench now, or to potentially have a has-been/ never-will-be playing meaningful games later in the season. I think they made the right choice since they need help now or later may not matter anyways.

Did I mention the reds are .500? Because they are. Again. Suprise!

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