Why then are the Ivies, UC-Berkeley, Rice, and Northwestern ranked academically so much higher than the schools of the SEC (save for Vanderbilt)?
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I do agree with you, and I tend to believe President Crawford agrees with you. But what about the English and Pol Sci faculty? These are the folks I indirectly mentioned in my previous post.
Close enough. The main idea is that by increasing selectivity, the university attracts better students and, thus, can push the envelope and teach more advanced content, i.e., better education. Think about two universities: one can teach the basics of AI + some more advanced content, whereas the other can only teach the basics of AI because the instructor has to review, say, high school level linear algebra or calculus. Again, the assumption is that high selectivity implies better-prepared students. Naturally, assumptions are not always correct.
Welcome!
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and there lies the problem I have with this conversation. There are a lot of assumptions (maybe even magical thinking) and little empirical evidence of increased academic rigor and improvement. A perception of greater selectivity is just that, a perception. Sorry, but I tend to find post-modernist theory on par with astrology and phrenology. And this is related to the huge problem I have with selectivity playing an oversized role in college rankings, because it has incentivized universities to encourage more unqualified students to apply (in order to increase selectivity). If anything the rankings are a measure of a studentâs ability when he/she arrives on campus as opposed to what he/she might actually learn throughout his/her college career.
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You can argue all day about little empirical evidence for academic rigor (Iâm unaware of decent metrics outside of post-grad career performance so itâs a fair argument), but thereâs plenty of evidence that it increases money. And money can buy you a lot.
Iâm also not sure why you donât want to use the rapid climbs of schools who used athletic success to improve academics, but then cite it for the Ivys. Either discard the data source or use all of it. You canât have it both ways. The Ivys have nearly unlimited funds thanks to their endowments. Also, Northwesternâs endowment is over $15 billion. Itâs one of the largest endowments in the world.
I never suggested or claimed the Ivys obtained lofty academic credentials through athletic success. In fact, just the opposite.
I agree, but that was never my argument.
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Thank you for the insight. This whole concept of âI personally donât like it, so itâs wrongâ is a problem in academia today. Free thinking should be promoted and I find that to be unlikely to come from the highly biased and opinionated.
IMOâŚAthletics / extra curriculars should be a cornerstone of every institution and that shouldnât be shied away from. They promote comradery and provide something for all walks to rally around. Additionally, it is the biggest part of the brand. All you have to do to believe that is look at the social media followings.
Thanks for posting, it is good to know that there is âboots on the groundâ faculty following and now participating in the forum.
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Prof,
I have a question as Iâve noticed this trend with high school students Iâve been around. They arenât interested in the sticker price as much as saying âI have 20K in scholarships or 90% of my tuitionâ rather than looking at what the actual cost is. Does that hold true for what you are seeing on campus or am I talking to the outliers?
Most of the nuance you speak of us lost on me, but I 100% agree with you that discounting is a bad strategy for long term premium brand growth.
Iâm the olden days the Ivy League schools definitely used athletics to enhance their prestige. Yale leads all universities with 18 national championships in football - all pre-WWII. Yale also had two Heisman Trophy winners - the latest in 1937. They definitely understood the usefulness of having solid high profile athletics programs to enhance their overall reputations. Once they had solidified their strong reputations and filled their endowments with obscene amounts of money, they decided to make their football programs âelite country club type programsâ that refuse to participate in the national playoffs. Ivies are still fairly competitive at the D1 level in basketball and hockey.
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Iâm pretty certain there is a cadre of professors like the ones the Prof mentioned on every campus in America - even at Alabama and LSU.
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So prior to the establishment of college athletics in the early 20th century, the academic credentials or profiles of the Ivys were simply average or on par with other institutions? I think you also need to consider the huge difference between college athletics at the time when the Ivys were at the top of the heap in the early 20th century and now. There simply is no comparison.
They definitely understood the concept of football as their front porch to fund-raise and attract national attention.
A lot of very elite colleges founded in those early years didnât promote athletics as much. They are just as solid academically as the Ivies but are not as well known - the Little Ivy likes of Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Tufts, Bowdoin, etc. The Ivies were big time into athletics - heavyweights of their era. UChicago, essentially a Midwest Ivy, was a member of the Big 10 and produced the very first Heisman. They deemphasized differently as the Big 10 exploded in prominence and chose to play D3 athletics like the NESCAC schools.
Amazing as it seems, in 1839, Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth and Miami were the four largest colleges in America. Our President in 1888 was a Yalie (Warfield). He wanted us to follow Yaleâs model - using football to enhance our visibility - so he started our football team.
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Itâs not like the Ivys had any problems fund raising or attracting national attention prior to college football. In this particular case, youâre over estimating the significance of football in terms of national prestige by a lot.
Disagree completely.
Yeah, because Miami became known as the âNew Jersey Institute of Techology of the Westâ as opposed to the âYale of the Westâ in the 19th century. /s
Just as University of Phoenix is Devry of the west.
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Just speaking from personal experience, I was in high school (way outside Alabama) around the time the Bama football dynasty got going. They came in with an insane offer and recruited me super hard because I scored well on the PSAT my sophomore year. I never seriously considered going there for a multitude of reasons, but that was the only reason I even bothered taking a look at them. Sports do play a factor in academics/enrollment (look at the application numbers for schools that go on March Madness runs), but the story for Alabamaâs rise is much more complicated than that, as @thechuck_2112 pointed out.
I am skeptical, check that incredulous that the football success Miami is capable of as MAC champion and âToilet Bowlâ victors is in anyway comparable to Alabamaâs multiple national championship run of the last decade. A MAC championship has never been worth less but not as little as it will be. Exactly what are we as an Institution chasing with an investment in MAC championships?